Immigration Forum
The topic of immigration is a recurring inspiration of debate in the United States, because it is so embedded in our culture. After all, the nation was built on immigration, and has become a modern day model for it.
The immigration fire has been rekindled of late, as Arizona passed a controversial law allowing officials to randomly ask individuals to present their paperwork based on subjective impression (possibly racial profiling). Many view this law as unconstitutional, and so the Supreme Court may overturn it. However, the nation needs to stop the bleeding of illegal immigration, especially considering the degree of unemployment among the American citizenry. Much of the menial labor that was once gladly left to illegal immigrants is now in high demand among a large number of out-of-work Americans. Still, with a lower cost option available to employers of illegal immigrants, those jobs still exist on the peripheral. It's a shadow labor market that we need to bring into the light.
So, the issue is not black and white then, but perhaps Arizona has gone too far? To be quite honest, I'm not so sure. Because, if you have paperwork, then there should be no problem. Still, imagine being jailed while some relative digs up ID. Perhaps Arizona's law should be shelved until technology allows a finger print to show proof of citizenship in real-time, or dare I say a national ID is created. However, that has a big-brother kind of flavor to it that most of us find distasteful. The idea of my day (or more) being ruined by the poor judgment of an aggressive law enforcement official also bothers me, because we know too many of the boys in blue have less than optimal judgment or opinion. In any event, I would like to discuss this issue with the readership, so please let's open up the immigration forum. Comment via the tab below.
Immigration Forum: What's Your View?
Debate Topic Archive
Greek Trivia Fact: Many of you may know that "The Greek's" own father was an immigrant, but even his naturalization was not without controversy. Before becoming a citizen, he volunteered to fight for the US in the Korean war, with the hope of proving his good intentions. However, if he was allowed to serve our great nation, we might not be celebrating MBCW this week.
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posted by The Greek | 10:40 AM
13 Comments:
If Congress really wanted to stop illegal immigration then there is a simple, effective solution. This is true of most of this nation's problems actually.
Confiscate any business enterprise that is found to be employing illegal aliens.
This is how we fight the drug war. If your house or car has drugs in them then they can be confiscated and sold at public auction.
Holding businesses accountable will insure that they do more than wink their eyes when they hire new employees.
personally witnessed AZ's delema as a part time resident. Car crash involving hit and run undocuomented Mexician and elderly
driver. Police ststed quite common, they have no license, insurance, and nothing to loose.
Walk in AZ's footsteps before condemming them!
"There are Americans, it hyphenated Americans". Theodore Roosevelt, president of the United States.
Somebody, just explain why the Liberals insist that we have to open our borders, surrender our land, wealth and our identity. Why do these children of perdition despise their own country and fellow citizens so much? What are these middle and upper middle class people so hateful and ashamed of?
You cannot change history. Northern Europeans settled and founded the U.S. Deal with it.
One way to stop the illegal crossings is for us to get our neighboring countries to take steps to improve the lot of their own citizens. maybe if things were better at home, the need to emigrate might not be needed.
There is nothing wrong with Arizona's law. It is not much different from Federal law. Non-Resident Aliens (Greencard holders) are supposed to carry their i.d.'s at all times. It's time we stopped viewing being an American as a bad thing and recognize as the privilege it is.
Oh and one more thing, this is the United States we speak English. Learn it, if not then leave.
Publius.
I happen to like Mexicans. They are warm and friendly, family-loing people. Of course they naturally want a better life for themselves and if they can't get into the country legally - who cares? I think you should direct your anger toward your own citizens that are bringing America down (corrupt Wall St, tainted foreign policy, and scandalous lobbying of Congress) - instead of at some poor Mexicans. The illegals are powerless and therefore inconsequential! Maybe their language and smells annoy you - fine...but if you're a real man - then aim your anger toward the POWERFUL - they do NOT have OUR interests at heart.
Carl,
I agree with you that confiscation of property will help curb the problem. Since the hiring of Mexicans occurs due to greed, fear of asset loss should effectively counter it.
When immigrants are employed at lower than market rates, they act to lower the cost of production and often also end market price of products. This is happening in the food industry in a big way. So, beware that the price of strawberries, which are handpicked, will increase substantially when Mexican citizens are taken off of American fields.
However, one might argue that we currently enjoy an artificially depressed price of food due to the oppression of illegal immigrants that are being taken advantage of. This is America! While the income may be enough for the immigrants (versus their income back home), it still may not be humane for American cost of living standards. So, then you get Mexican couples sleeping by the river in Manhattan, something I've seen with my own eyes. Or you find 10 people crammed into a tiny apartment and eating one meal a day.
This is helping nobody but the greedy businessmen that are boosting profit margins by hiring illegals, and in some instances, offering a more competitive price for goods for our comfort.
I have heard commentary in the media that Arizona and neighboring states do not actually have an interest in enforcing immigration laws; that it was more a move to pressure the federal government to enforce it's existing immigration laws and secure the border, which they obviously haven't been doing much of.
In terms of the jobs issue, I think that it is a myth that Americans won't do many of the jobs that illegal immigrants do. I recently hired a young man in his 20s to do yard work. He said that he and his friends have had a difficult time finding steady employment. They used to work in construction, but demand for renovations and new constructions is down, and many business owners of construction companies, roofing companies, flooring companies, landscaping companies only hire immigrants from Mexico.
Anonymous,
I agree with your statement about American willingness to do certain jobs. I think that, especially now, there are plenty of hard working Americans blocked out of this shadow labor market due to salary standards.
I'm not sure passing a law is a political action intended to put pressure on the federal government. However, if it was, it may have been a brilliant public relations maneuver. It certainly brought the issue into the light of American interest.
There's a lot of PR going on all around us. I'm about to write an article to shed light on one ploy that is bothering me.
This great country of ours was built by immigrants, "legal" immigrants. I am not saying that we need to stop immigration all together, that is just not American, but we need to know and control who is entering this great country of ours. There is no doubt that most illegal immigrants are good, hard working people who are looking for a better life but if they cannot enter this country legally, then they do not belong here.
To Anne,
I am not sure if your comments were directed at my comment or not. Speaking for myself, I do not single out Mexicans or other groups - but the situation. I can understand seeking a better life, but at whose expense?
Recent law now allows for illegal aliens to earn Social Security money. That is coming out of both of our Social Security monies now. Care to guess at what you'll not be collecting in the future. To pay for this, the cost of living increase on current Social Security is frozen until FY2012. If you have relatives collecting Soc. Sec. it is hitting them nw. Medicare faced similar cutbacks as well.
My anger is directed at the far left wing "liberals". Why not force our neighbors to better the lot of their own citizens. Why must be the absorbing sponge? Even a sponge can absorb just so much before it too is saturated.
It is a compliment that many still see us as "the golden door". What many of us just ask is pay your taxes and for heaven's sake - learn to speak English.
My ancestors emigrated, legally -back then they had no choice but to learn English - and they did. Italian, German, Yiddish and Russian were spoken at home. In the stores thay ran, they spoke English. The same applied to my Cherokee ancestors.
Oh and yes, I am one of those annoying New Yorkers who when faced with a non-English speaking store person, I have a nasty habit of answering in oe of the four languages I speak.It works both ways.
Publius
Publius, why does everyone get up in arms against monies going towards immigrants but not up in arms against monies going toward military spending, "aid" to Israel, or fat bonuses to CEOs?
Illegals are trying to survive - they don't have time/money to take English classes. It's not easy to learn a 2nd language. Why be so offended?
To Anne, and others:
My offense is that unlike years past, there seems to be no desire to even attempt to assimilate or try to learn to Engliush among some segments (notice I said, some, not all) of immigrant populations.
How is that earlier immigrant groups, by and large moved beyond the "shtetl" and learned English.
This English - "no speak English" cuts across a variety of groups, not just those of Latino origin.
Struggle; yes, I understand. But at least make an effort. No handouts; enough is enough!
The language issue is the largest. What does one have to do to get basic items in a store?
What I am offended is stunts like what happened to the high school kids in California being dismissed from school because of they wore t-shirts with the American flag. One had a bandana - that maybe is understandable. Latino kids in the district quite promptly threatened the kids and then had a rally parading a foreign flag on U.S. Soil demanding "respect".
Respect? You pull a stunt like that and want respect? I would love see that same group pull that in Camp LeJeune or Fort Dix.
That is just beyond reasoning.
As for your other points. So we support Israel, big deal. Given what the rest of that part world thinks and feels about westerners and other infidels, better an ally in Israel than bowing to a caliphate. Gee, I remember some famous individual doing just that last year.
As for your other points; we agree. I was incensened at the bailout programs, especially when news broke that the bonuses were still going to be paid. Those bailouts should have been granted with the proviso of no bonuses for anyone. Greater accountability of the funds should have also been required.
I wonder why our government does not try and to get our neighbors to make the situations in their own countries better. I guess that would require our own leaders actually becoming leaders, being responsible and taking a stand. Not just a defiant stand, but a stand that could benefit not just Americans here, but the Americans from other parts of our hemisphere.
Publius.
The answer is simple. The illegal Mexican immigrants, and those Mexicans who desire ethnic power over the good of the nation, arfe not philotimo. Democracy cannot exist without philotimo, period.
I agree with anonymous, as would anyone who knows what philotimo, and realted virtues such as li, yi, and ren in Kung Fu-tzu, mean. Democracy requires philotimo. Illegal immigration, which is based on an ethics of personla desire only, is not not philotimo.
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